NO

Sounds close to Communisim if you ask me.
Americans have the right to work hard to make a living.....or not.
It all seems fair to me.

Maybe some occupations need to make more money. Teachers are one fine example of under-paid Americans.

Absolutely not. You should never be penalized for working hard and making a success of your life. There should be a flat rate that everyone pays regardless of their income level.

We were discussion a similar scenario on an emergency prep site about redistributing stockpiles of food and supplies in a disaster. To me its the same thing. If I worked hard to prepare then I deserve to keep those things.

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Proud mommy to adorable Kinsley

I think the whole system is a farce! The rich get too many loopholes. Large corporations can incoporate in other countries and not have to pay a cent. For the rest of us, we have to scrimp and save and in some cases make payments just to get our tax bills straightened out. Whomever thought up this system and believed it was fair had no idea what it is like for the common family.

The real problem with the tax system is that it is put together by government employees, and worse, law makers. Have you seen what these people make? They are not in the same tax bracket as you or I and they don't care what it's like for the rest of us. Tax code is written to shelter these people from having to pay much, while we pay for their salaries, their cars, their expenses, everything.

Then our money is syphoned out of our wallets to pay for government agencies and give away programs that are so broken, it makes your head spin. How many families have been in hard times and tried to get governement assistance to pay for food, shelter or medical care, and found nothing. Because you don't fit into the figures that they use as an average for the nation, you get nothing. You are not the right demographic. Or, you have to put your family into a dangerous position to qualify.

When you really think about it, we are paying much more in tax than we realize. Taxes come out of your paycheck every month. Don't think that just because you get a refund of some of your money at the end of the year that you're getting a deal- you're not. They still took a large percentage of money that you worked for and could have used. Then you have to pay tax on gas, on purchases, on services. You have to pay tax on your property. You have to pay tax on your groceries. Do you realize that when you buy a car from a dealership, you have to pay tax on the purchase, tax on registering it, and then one day, when you sell it, you have to pay tax on it again! Your employer even has to pay taxes for having you as a paid employee even though you're paying taxes for getting paid. Since when is double dipping a fair system?

The tax system is broken and needs to be reworked by normal people. Weather its a flat tax or not, there needs to be some kind of meeting of the minds and even those in power or with a lot of money need to be just as accountable as the rest of us. There needs to be more oversight in government agencies and programs to ensure funds are not misappropriated and there is as little beurocracy as possible to keeps costs down. The government also needs to learn to do what the rest of us do- work with what you have. Don't keep raising our taxes because you can't balance your own budget. Why should the masses be penalized for the incompetency of the few?

-Lucky

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Christine's Corner



Mom to Matt, 3 years and Catie, 7 months!

I agree with this as well. People I think who don't get paid enough are teachers, nurses, social workers, firefighters, police, and paramedics/emt's. The 19 year old assistant manager at McDonalds earns more than the person who can save your life if you have a heart attack or get in an accident.
I think athletes and actors make too much money. I know it's related to how much money they bring in to their certain industry. I think it's silly that a man gets paid millions to run up and down a field catching a ball, but around $30,000 to run into a burning building to save a child, and put his/her life at risk to do so.

I was wondering if someone was going to mention the fair tax, and I'm glad that you did.

For the record, I am a HUGE proponent of the fair tax, with the reasons being as follows:

1. It scraps the current IRS and tax system.
2. You get your entire paycheck (less state taxes, i and other deductions, f any). No federal income tax, no SS tax, no medicaid tax.
3. Corporate taxes go away (I'll get to this in a minute).
4. All households get a monthly or quarterly (can't remember which) rebate which is based on actuary tables, equal to the amout of tax that they pay for basic necessities - food, clothing, etc. This puts everyone on a level playing field.
5. You are taxed on what you spend. If you spend more, you obviously pay more tax. You are responsible for how much you spend, and on what.
6. Currently, corporations add about 22-23% to the cost of an item to cover the taxes that it has to pay to the federal government. By having a fair tax of 22-23% (which is what leading economists have figured out is the "magic number"), you will be paying no more for that pair of shoes than you pay today.
7. Calculations done by economists on both sides of the political fence show that having a fair tax will actually INCREASE the amount of $$ the federal government takes in, not decrease it.

This actually makes sense folks, and it's in black and white. HR 25 has been introduced into the House of Representatives.

Don't take my word on this. Research it for yourself. Google "fair tax". Here are a couple of links to start you off:

Americans For Fair Taxation: FairTax.org
FairTax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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A simple lesson in How Tax Cuts Work

Sometimes politicians, journalists and others exclaim; "It's just a tax cut for the rich!" and it is just accepted to be fact. But what does that really mean? Just in case you are not completely clear on this issue, I hope the following will help. Please read it carefully.

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." Dinner for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six men -- the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to eat their meal. So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).

The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!" "That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start eating overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

Should it be? It already IS, through welfare and other social service programs. Unfortunately those are run by state organizations and the rules are made by politicians who want to get re-elected. Some states (like Virginia) are still running the programs the way they were in the 1970s, where recipients get rewarded for having more babies (= more $$). Other states, like Arkansas, kick you off welfare if you get pregnant while on it, require you to get job training, and have a 2 or 3 year limit of receiving benefits. (California was enacting similar laws when I still lived there 10 years ago, not sure if they're still on the books.)

I'm very much against socialism, but I don't think children should ever have to go hungry or live in poverty. The problem is that many of the kids that are in families where public assistance is a way of life never learn to work for or appreciate what they are given. My hubby is a teacher in a school where 85% of the student population gets free lunch and breakfast. They also receive coats during the winter from various charities -- most of which the kids lose within a week or two (at home, on the playground, etc.). Granted these are kids, but nobody's teaching them the value of things. Most (but not all) of these kids also have expensive clothes and shoes, are in next-to-free child care after school and get free dinner at the school too. The live in homes with crack addicts, etc. I *love* that we can feed these kids, but I hate that my tax dollars go to put a roof over their parents' heads (and usually to buy their cell phone, cable, etc.) Our welfare system needs an overhaul with the tax system!

Okay. Enough of that rant.

I like the idea of a consumption tax to replace the income tax. I think state income taxes should be eliminated as well. Of our paychecks we're already paying close to 30% in taxes when you count state, federal, social security, medicare, etc. Then out of that money we pay property tax on our house, property tax on our cars, sales tax on groceries, sales tax on clothes and consumer goods, taxes and "fees" on our telephone, electricity, cable service, etc. (I think I'm going to calculate this for a month and see what our real tax rate is!)

The fair tax mentioned in the previous post is probably the only solution that is truly fair. The fact that people that don't actually pay any tax can get money back (Earned Income Credit) is just one more slap in the face to people who work hard. And yes, there are loopholes for the super-wealthy, but they are already paying 10 or 20 times as much as the average American, why should they have to carry the burden -- they are usually the same people who build businesses and create jobs.

I don't think there should ever be a level where one has to pay NO taxes. Sort of like the kids who don't appreciate the free coats...

I come from a pretty big family, I have a wealthy sibling and a drug-addict sibling, and several us fall in the middle. My wealthy sibling got that way (coming from a decidedly middle-class family) by working hard, not wasting money, being responsible, and doing without. She did not luck-into any money or marry rich. She has 4-year-old computer and a pay-as-you-go cell phone. She doesn't have cable. She buys used cars. And she always made sure she could afford good schools for her daughter (another choice was to have only one child). She works, volunteers, and donates a LOT of money to charity as well. My drug addict sister had her first kid at 17 -- she got pregnant on purpose because she didn't want to have to finish high school. She's always been smart, but always been lazy. Her youngest child was taken away from her by social services and is being raised by a family member. Her other children are grown. She has had several opportunities to get out of the mess that she's made of her life, but doesn't want to, because she doesn't want to have to be responsible. My point in all this rambling is that it is about choices.

In my personal experience, nearly everyone I know that complains that they can't get ahead really isn't trying. They claim they can't save money, but they they have money for beer and cigarettes and cell phones and satellite tv, etc. I know there are exceptions, and there are circumstances that are beyond control. (I have certainly known people who were devastated by medical bills.) I also know that if *I'd* been frugal when I was young and emulated my sister instead of going out to dinner a lot and buying lots of "toys" when we were earning good money before we had kids, we'd also be as wealthy as her. She has money but doesn't squander it, saving it for retirement. I'm getting a rather late start compared to her.

I'm comfortable, but not rich. I can afford to stay home and take care of my family only because I'm frugal (as I said, hubby is a school teacher). It drives my teenagers nuts sometimes, but mostly they get it. Most of their friends live in big new houses, we live in a smaller 30-year-old house. We were lucky in the respect that we bought our house before the prices went nutso. But we haven't borrowed against it and have no other debt.

Do I think my nearly 50% tax on our income is fair, and should it support someone who doesn't work? NO WAY!

Well, first of all, welcome, vcudnik - glad to see you jumping right in!

I must say that I agree with your posts. Your thoughts are very well thought out and well written, and you back up what you say with figures. Thank you.

Oh, and I did figure out how much my tax is for fed, state, medicare, and SS - 41.65%. That does not include gas tax, sales tax, and all of the other taxes (phone, satellite, etc...). I figure that my husband and I actually end up with about 45-50% of our gross income after all of our taxes.

I guess the question becomes - why are we busting our butts? Oh yeah, because we were raised to be responsible...

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I was wondering when someone was going to mention this.

I have had the same personal experiences. I too have family members that are at every family gathering complaining about how it's not "fair" and they can't get ahead...and then light up a cigarette or talk about the last movie they watched on their Directv Tivo last night, or what they were doing online.

I also agree that it isn't the case with everyone...but I believe it is a large percentage.

People have this mentality of entitlement and it just seems to be getting worse and worse. They don't understand that cell phones, internet, cable, long distance, Netflix, eating out, etc. are WANTS not needs. It irks me that my tax dollars end up paying for these things for some people.

I totally agree with this. There is no incentive to better themselves in my opinion.

We are in a high tax bracket and I TOTALLY agree with that statement. By the time we pay income tax, Medicare, Social Security, health insurance, 401K, etc., we are living on about 50% of our income. That is not including life insurance, other retirement, investments, sales tax, property tax, etc.

Why do my husband and I have to work our butts off, budget and give up extras sometimes to be responsible and others are just permitted to coast along with no personal responsibility?

Welcome to the board!

Wow this has been quite a debate. I think that having the wealthy taxed more is ok. If you are making enough to have all your needs met then why not have higher taxes. On a whole though I think that the brackets should be adjusted so that there is more of them and not a huge jump from paying 15% to paying 25%. We were in the very bottom of that lovely middle class tax bracket in 2005. We owed $2000 we are still trying to pay it. Paying that 25% is easy for someone at the top of the bracket and hard for some one at the bottom.
I also know someone who not only got all her money back but got a credit and recieved a sizeable refund (I know I did her taxes). Low income, single mom, with student loans and hoping to get a good job. For her and hundreads of others getting a tax credit, wic & medicare means she can have money to save so she can finally move out of mom and dads (25), get her own place and support herself. This year she has found a job that has tripled her income so she won't need the assitance. I like to bring this up because while there are drug addicts or others who abbuse the system there are also low income, well educated people who just fall on hard times.
Yes a fair system would be nice but I think we need to still provide assistance to those who are in times of need. As to the tax system being but together and controled by goverment employees as a former goverment employee I can tell you that the majority of them don't make squat and are in low level positions. After childcare with my goverment job I would have made $100 a week. For me it wasn't worth keeping.

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Kimberly Proud Mommy to Bethany Rose April 2006 &

Organizer of the Coupon Clippers of Tacoma